I would like people to know that Danny sacrificed everything, she said. I do. Additionally, John studied at the University of Aberdeen, Scotland. I understand the victim mentality, I have been a victim, but his repentance has little to do with the womens healing. Same play book. From the website, its all sunshine and lollipops but the mask is really starting to slip. 331-3030. Timing is interesting. But I believe the women who have been abused by Bill Hybels are telling the truth. The way it worked with all of these people is very similar to the way it worked with us. The gossip inspectors have arrived. For most organizations, hard questions and analytical thinking is NOT desirable, as it will almost always challenges the official orthodoxy and might even unmask hidden agendas. I cant help but see your point here. A high five or handshake can do the same. We sat under their leadership at Willow Creek for several years and were sad when the Ortbergs left to California. Oh yeah. 1 comment deleted. His silence and secrecy put my child in harms way, she said. You also wonder what other people might think of you if you mention it. Not every Christian is called to be an evangelist, but every Christian should have a heart for the lost. See you tomorrow! And, yes, some people dont come forward with their experiences for dozens of years. Remember Bill hybels stepped down. [16], A central theme of Ortberg's teaching and books is spiritual formation, the transforming of human character through authentic experiences with God. You just described me. Anyone questioning the purpose of this blog should realize that when churches and relgious leaders put themselves out there accountabilty comes with that publicity. AFAIK they havent yet made any corrections or denials. Its the evil person who masquerades as a good person. Good Lord! I think I said in another thread, there are hugs and there are hugs and we can generally tell the difference. John Ortberg is an evangelical pastor of the "seeker-sensitive" variety. Take responsibility for your actions and the role you played! When his father refused to act, Lavery wrote the initial email to church leaders expressing his concerns, detailing his conversations with his brother and his father, along with his brothers long history of work with children. Thanks Dee. Time for repentance not damage control. Ever thought of switching to WordPress? I do believe that he may have gone through a time of repentance and contrition, as much as he may understand that he needs to, and has come to the other side of it and that is the reason that he may not seem as repentant as they expect. Its the attempt by pastors to do life together and facilitate relationship-building which will then hopefully anchor the visitor to the church and reduce dropouts and increase retention rates. And yes I tend to paint with a broad brush because the structures and systems involved demand it. Prestige of Willow Creek? Amnon: I WANNA TAMAR! He describes how skilled offenders select, set up, groom, offend against, re-groom and then re-offend against the woman/women they target. In your view, discussing Hybels behavior is worse than his behavior. The term sometimes used is secure email. * Now, it all falls into place: Wow, Im not the only person this happened to. This was real. This was wrong.. 1 of 5 stars 2 of 5 stars 3 of 5 stars 4 of 5 stars 5 of 5 stars. Terrible, terrible thing. And because God is faithful, the better you know Him, the more youll trust Him. If I felt uncomfortable I removed myself from the situation and spoke up. Combined with Johnnys dislike of Laverys trans nature, Daddys statement combines with the picture to tell us the story of an entire family mired in dysfunction and misplaced priorities. If he was having problems with women when taking Ambien, why didnt he stop taking it and get help? (Dee), TELL YOUR DOCTOR if you have unlikely but serious side effects of Ambien including: 1 kiss I truly hope that WCC reexamines who they are. Only much later did I recall, for instance, my pastor condemning those gossip bloggers who were trying to tear down the church which is how I first found this blog. This is being dealt with by the appropriate people and I will follow up when I learn more. You are accountable). Cliffe co-founded the Toast, a now-dormant but beloved blog, with Lavery. We must judge actions and , if they are wrong, we must pass judgement on them, even if it is one of our beloved leaders. This is MBA stuff. I actually thought it was funny. I am quite curious what nonsense what posted now, because what?! Well said, Betty! [12] Daniel M. Lavery is the founder, writer and editor of the now-defunct feminist humor blog The Toast[13] and was the author of the "Dear Prudence" advice column for the Slate online magazine from November 2015 until May 2021. Dont allow it in your personal life. 3 comments are deleted. Then Ortberg, a popular speaker and evangelical leader who played a key role in drawing public attention to allegations of misconduct against Bill Hybels, the legendary founder of Willow Creek, returned to the pulpit and the church hoped to move on. Mistletoe killing an oak, I am going to say something that will probably cause an uproar. Think carefully. Get this straight. Is it the lack of family having your back? You can trust Jesus and He is your perfect role model. And of course, the crisis management priority hangs over all of this. I know the sun will rise in the morning, that there is a light at the end of every tunnel.Michael Morpurgo. That was 25 years ago. How many times do you think it needs to be posted? Hybels was Clintons spiritual advisor. This makes my blood boil. Read the books and follow the formula. Should I be worried? I have said that I do not appreciate victim denigration which is inherent in her supposed expos .Enough is enough. Finding someone to love is something that a lot of people look forward to. But then, Im just The Crazy Kid, and hes always been the Sweet Little Angel. There were people in the main office just outside the tutoring office where I worked with students. But in June, believing the church had failed to do so, Lavery posted his email to the church elders this time revealing his brothers name on social media. It frustrates me that victims have to endure more pain when they come forward. No wonder you have no qualms about slamming the Church, the bride of Christ. Its time stamped documentation. This is my church and I dont think there are any loliests but there are people who want a full accounting. However, it cannot coexist with checks and balances laid upon its leaders. I developed this over the last 10 years in writing curriculum on addressing systemic abuse. It cannot even operate in a functional, harmonious manner. Of course, you have move people beyond that into a mature relationship with the Lord and some megas neglect this. (PS: Is it just me or do a LOT of these big-name evangelicals kids turn out to have very serious problems?). If we removed the words and reasoning from the picture, it could be seen precisely as that but not when we see the object and the need for the action. That said, this is all so tragic. Reminds me of Bill Gothard and how he gromms and re-grooms his victims too. The whole system is built and maintained to allow this. His resignation is effective Sunday (Aug. 2). Marquet changed the Leader-Follower traditional naval paradigm to Leader-Allocate Control, resulting in success for all. The cookie is used to store the user consent for the cookies in the category "Other. Lets put all our conjecture up about the retracted affair as well. Time for some more sacred cows to get smashed. It is a sad day for others in a position of leadership at Willow Creek to have been slow to address this and take definitive steps against it early on! Jesus was a grand act to follow, and the disciples did it right. Laura has written for The New York Times, New York Magazine, and BuzzFeed. The church Elders allowed Bill to stay in an unsupervised counseling relationship with her, while neither her husband nor Bills wife was made aware of the situation. No worries. Do not judge, and you will not be judged. I have Every year for many years OT once and NT twice- every year. Captain Cassidy grew up fervently Catholic, converted to the SBC in her teens, and became a Pentecostal shortly afterward. Hybels is a man and he serves at the pleasure of the real King. As Im reading the comments, its becoming evident that theres something horribly wrong with Willow Creek church. The Church is built on Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit, not on them. I know youre already looking at this post like this: O.O. One more narcissistic, egotistical, Out of control, self-serving man in a position of trust has been stopped in his tracts. What needs to be addressed is that this is not a matter of somehow eliminating the existence of random perverts, as if such a thing were possible. ), ECO (A Covenant Order of Evangelical Presbyterians), OnlySky: The Last Lord Snow Presides ". The problem is when the church becomes just like the world, when its a big organization with huge budgets and building programs and long-term goals and plans and a big stage with spotlights and a pastor whos a celebrity and whom very few people know, save for the 45 minute public show/motivational speech every week (or far less than every week, if youre Robert The Hairdoo Morris), people have an average drive of 30 miles to the sanctuary and what has been created is so artificial that the church leaders must create these artificial means to patch some fake community thing together so the whole works remains a going concern, what with the bills to pay and all those families dependent on those salaries. It was humbling for you, but there was nothing inappropriate about Bill trying to guide your whole self as an up and coming leader. This has been going on for a long time, and he has had much time to process this, and as he said, he has been accountable, at least after he let go of his anger, to the elders. The old Soviet government arrested and jailed Christians. (RNS) John Ortberg, popular Christian author and speaker, has resigned as pastor of Menlo Church, a megachurch congregation outside of San Francisco. Brad, for better or worse, you are an example of the average WCC person to me. Those allegations had arisen in late 2019, initially, John had not identified his son as the volunteer in question to the congregation. This leads those who might otherwise speak up about inappropriate behavior to not cast the first stone. But, still I try not to broad brush. And it still doesnt negate what Bill Hybels did, even if it were to be true. @ truthseeker00: @ dee: Or perhaps some women get hugged one way or the other disproportionately for one reason or the other and therefore complain or not about hugging-ness. Ive experienced it alsomultiple times. @ Lydia. Its YOUR money they use. @ Bridget: I refuse to answer the question How many people have you led to Christ? That question has no place in our discussions. There was also some sort of one world conspiracy deal. Steve Carter (Hybels hand picked teaching pastor) was on staff with Rob Bell at Mars Hill EMERGENT Church. John Ortberg reveals the nature of his religions decline as a whole, but he also illustrates exactly why his religiondeserves to decline,evenneeds to decline. Nicole Cliffe, a writer and family friend, said she hopes John Ortberg will step down. The issue with those who had represented themselves before God and man as being in a place of spiritual authority with the responsibility tojudgment were made public spin). Its what someone mentioned in another thread about 75% of people go along with whatever to be accepted. Then more examples came out. Here are some points of summary that I wrote about why this matters: From some of the background reading on this issue, it is clear that digital documents, audio, and video can constitute relevant evidence in any of these legal actions. Thanks, Julie! No, the flesh made them do it! Cliffe believes John Ortberg has betrayed the trust needed to be a pastor. She thanks you too. Who though renowned for his wisdom, had a strong of Rich Kid with Famous Father syndrome. It often makes for very lively and interesting discussions. Stop blaming women for getting assaulted. but I know you dont have that set up. So much! I suspect there are nefarious folks who prefer hugging all genders to shaking hands, as hugging males, as well as females, gives them plausible cover when they go for the non-righteous hug with a female (saying, I hug everybody!) Plus, research shows that women (generally) are more influenced by touch, as they have higher releases of oxytocin when hugged than males and even have a more dramatic willingness than men under those circumstances to give someone their money. In the process, one creates division, hatred and war, both within and without the so-called Church. some Rabbi from Nazareth. Why it was Bill Hybels! Nothing more. Big money, fame, power and influence? I have said his actions with women have been wrong and they are disqualifying for a man of the Gospel. https://www.amazon.com/Corporate-Cults-Insidious-All-Consuming-Organization/dp/0814404936. [8] In October 2021, the third-party organization Zero Abuse Project completed an investigation into the matter after interviewing 104 witnesses and reviewing or analyzing more than 500,000 documents. It is clear to me that God did not want this hidden any longer.. I tell you, when someone like BH is exposed, people come out of the woodworks to defend their celebrity hero and attempt to discredit the victims. In fact, thats the same position Strobel held there from 1987 to 2000! Instead, we are the be faithful to our calling. @ Lea: And could it easily be construed as creating complicity by whoever carried out that demand? They are in denial. I mean, most say they want the truth. The cookie is used to store the user consent for the cookies in the category "Analytics". Its rarely what people are told to believe it is. My former abusive, cultish and abuser-friendly church was positively obsessed with unity. The pastor preached on it continually. I would add that based upon reactions of his followers here, it becomes more obvious why. All about leadership, leadership, leadership. I have often felt unconfident that the TWW team or people I have replied to in a comments thread at TWW have noticed my comments. Lawrence Krauss is a famous atheist and liberal crusader and, in certain whisper networks, a well-known problem, according to author Peter Aldhous, in his article on *BuzzFeed*. BTW, one of the drawbacks with the current format is we dont even see recent comments from older threads. But of course, youve been trained up in the world of megas, where vapid sayings take the place of the Bible. Hence, it is easier to build a close-knit cult of people who really dont know each other that well. debuted at #3 on the New Release chart. Its a thing now. http://www.dianelangberg.com/2018/04/dear-church/, Dee, my Sister Nancy Beach sent me this today. But, years of playing the great man on stage can be a very powerful armor. As it says in the bible, Who are we to judge? These things seem like nitpicking until you have more information. If someone thinks so, tell me how. John then assumed his current role at Menlo Park Presbyterian Church, a Multi-campus church in Northern California. Cant people be sincere and caring without all that? God is not in the business of secretly brainwashing and subtly mind controlling people. Photo by Sammy Dallal. The FAQ document she links, however, entitled Willow Creek Response to Local Media, has mysteriously transformed itself into a 404 NOT FOUND message. The creep factor never ceases to amaze me. I dont understand the focus by this and other commenters on when did she tell her husband. Caste discrimination laws remain fraught. The elder board at Menlo Church, a multi-campus congregation headquartered in an affluent . Not atypical. its definitely legit and very well written. I refuse to answer the question How many people have you led to Christ? That question has no place in our discussions. Couldnt find it on wayback. The contents might be encrypted, and, if a key used to decrypt them is lost (or not handed over), they arent readable. (See endnote for explanation of this Christianese.). The church also barred the volunteer from working in its childrens ministry and said the volunteer no longer has a role at the church. By the time you get there, youve probably already been compromised yourself, youve supported a lot of evil things, youve shouted down others who were only trying to get at the truth (as I once did, alassorry, Adam, you were right and I was wrong, pastor really was up to no good), and its not easy to extricate yourself or your family. My professional organization will not do that In fact, we are specifically instructed how to do email when legally sensitive information is invloved. In my 9 years of writing a blog which deals with abuse issues, I have been deeply upset by the responses of Christians when their celebrity church or pastor have been shown to have clay feet. I have to think, absolutely have to think, that a courageous leader sure wouldve done things differently in the last month, whether Hybels is totally clean and all of these women leaders in the church and old friends of Bill are part of a vast conspiracy to destroy Bill Hybels, the righteous man, or if Hybels is dirty and all along was an abusive sociopath and terminal liar. There is a reason that statute of limitations are being revised throughout the country. Tried to handle it internally. This is why I have posted the 1 Tim 5 passage in two threads recently: Just read what the Bible says about leaders and ask, Is it even possible that God would set these high standards for elders/overseers/pastors and then only give us promiscuous, abusive, and manipulative leaders?. @ Julie: I dont know if that all makes sense. Good night!!! However, for people like those profiled on this site who have fallen short in protecting those under their charge (say, by covering ups their own misdeeds and/or crimes or those of others) to reemerge in a place where they again wish to wield spiritual authority (by starting another ministry (sic) in which they assume spiritual leadership or selling books advising sheep on spiritual matters seeking funding from said sheep in each case) is massively troubling. We have not seen courageous leadership. Woe to the one who quarrels with his Maker An earthenware vessel among the vessels of earth! Not at all but this bit sums up Hybels Leadership acumen we used to make fun of in the 90s. I suspect one does not not from creepy hugs, but research shows it is true in more ambivalent hugs, or hugs where someone is already inclined to have even a small degree of trust (e.g. Not a wise thing to do. Its not a numbers game, its not like worldly sales with rainmakers and marketing and big hits. Bill Hybels stepped down. They know exactly how to size people up, how to take advantage of their needs, insecurities, weaknesses, etc. Will the newly installed Willow Creek pastoral leadership/management just put a proverbial 501(c)3 band-aid on an open sore and continue business as usual; now that there has been identified a large hole in this churchs ethical, moral and scriptural superstructure? Because saving his legacy saves Willow Creek. John Ortberg is a 65-year-old evangelical Christian, pastor, author, and speaker. I know this sounds harsh but its notbecause I am guilty, too. Lets do church. Everyone who is still there from the elders to the lowliest either thinks like this or doesnt dare open their mouth. Then they become red flags. Im not sure if Julie is a regular or not (I cant keep up), but a new Twitter account alerted me to that article as well, that is why I asked. By your words you will be justified and by your words you will be condemned Jesus Matthew 12:37. Look at it this way, if they had waited just 6-months longer Brother Hybels would have been given an honorable exit from the ministry as he faded into retirement without facing these allegations. He has also studied at the University of Aberdeen, Scotland. There are evil people who look like good people. Might I suggest this might more accurately say that sexual predation is not always based on wanting to have sex? There are cuddle friends. Hint hint. Know who you are. Jesus wins. Enough has been said about BH for him to be disqualified in my book, and given how Williow Creek model was push on much of christainity, we are all well within the commands of the NT to exhibit judgement and wisdom if want, we can start playing the verse naming game if you wish. I am going to assume this women does not know how business is conducted these days. They adopted the commercial business approach. She also questioned her own judgment in whether he was actually being inappropriate. I got a chuckle out of your comment to Brad. And a pedestal they can fall from and did. This is a well worn story, insert Pastor name here, insert church name here. Willow Creek is worldly like most churches. That isnt good for anyone. Many self/proclaimed Christians dont. Personally I was more offended by Wailing Wall-Satanic ritual connection. What shes done more than anything is reveal that Willow Creek had/has a culture and work environment that is not guided or governed by wise, common-sense policies or practices for accountabilityespecially when it came to male-female relationships. (Hoping they picked the right winning faction). Things are starting to get ugly. Ortberg allowed the volunteer to continue working with children for months after learning that information, and it has now come . I wonder if her crisis of faith was after finding out about something shady Bill was doing? She described the whole situation as profoundly sad. @ Julie: Its not healthy for Johnny.. It is now obvious to me why Ortberg not only believed the accounts of the other victims but why she advocated for them. This website contains documentation and information regarding the allegations against John Ortberg and Menlo Church and the subsequent cover-up.